Forgiven… or not

In a previous post “Children – the really young ones” I mentioned just “off the cuff” that I believe that children are born with pure clean hearts and as they grow older all the adults around them scar their little hearts.

I had one commenter that began her post by agreeing me but then “spanked me” with the ole “We are all born into sin so the babies are not pure Theology.”  She used a couple of OT verses to back up her argument. 

That got me to thinking (something I do quite often).  Christ died on the cross and took on ALL of our transgretions.  He paid the price for ALL SIN past, present and future.

So here’s my question; if new born babies are born “into sin” at what point are they forgiven of the sin they are born into?

I give you these verses to review:

Col 1:14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Col 1:20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Eph 1: 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 2: 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

I have always been taught the “sin nature” Theology.  But now I’m wondering if Jesus died for all sin, why not ALL sin?  And if not all sin how are these babies forgiven?

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

So once again, if Jesus’ blood covers ALL sin at what point does the “born into sin” Theology over ride what was done on the cross?

What am I missing?

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10 Responses to Forgiven… or not

  1. Old Testament God always cracks me up. He was CLEARLY trying to lay some smack down.

    We always think of Jesus in terms of bringing the divinity of God to mankind. But Jesus was born of woman and I always wondered if he in turn brought ‘humanity’ to God. Or maybe being a ‘parent’ itself had an effect? I wonder if that’s why New Testament God was a little more mellow.

    Anyway, I doubt Jesus would want us to look at babies as little bundles of sin.

    And, mssc54, can I just say your research is very thorough!

  2. Don’t buy that argument myself. Ignoring the theological issues, accepting the argument that babies are born sinful means that the millions of aborted babies have ended up in hell. I feel that goes more against the nature of God than anything

  3. bereanwife says:

    Just a challenging question to ponder.

    “If all babies are sinless and all go to heaven, would not the kindest thing be to abort or murder everyone? Then they could never sin and could never “reject” the gospel.”

  4. Joy says:

    This is hard to phrase. I personally don’t for a second believe that babies are full of sin. How absurd that sounds. I did baptize my boys but a big part of that, in my opinion is pomp a circumstance. A tradition. I don’t believe if a child dies before baptism that any kind and just God would not turn them away from the gates of Heaven.

  5. mssc54 says:

    bereanwife sent me this as an email. I thought it may be helpful for our discussion.

    “I am sorry that you disagree with me. I just came to your site through The Desert Pastor’s. I would have avoided leaving a comment if I had realized how differently you view the Scriptures. I have no intention to be argumentative. There was no “spanking” intended and you may delete this if you desire. But since you asked:”What if I were to say that I disagree with you on being born in sin based on (some) NT Scripture.”
    First of all I would say that we cannot throw out the Old Testament because Jesus quoted the Old Testament so many times. You cannot ignore the Old (law and prophets) in favor of the New.
    Matt 5:17-20
    17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. NIV
    The New Testament has anywhere from 600 direct Old Testament quotes to 4,000 references to the Old Testament. In Timothy, Paul encourages Timothy in his knowledge of the Holy Scriptures, being able to make him wise and lead to Salvation. What Scriptures? The New was still being written and Timothy could not have learned them from his youth so this is referring to the Old Testament.
    2 Tim 3:14-16
    14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. NIV
    The gospel is portrayed throughout the Old Testament not just in the New.

    But to answer your question using just the New Testament.There is no problem with your verses but they point out that the elect have had their sins redeemed by the blood of Christ. This doesn’t negate the fact that we are sinful from birth.

    Rom 4:6-8
    6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
    7 “Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.” NIV

    Which is a quote from the Old Testament, Psalms 32:1-2. Not having sin imputed unto us does not change the fact that we sin from birth continually.

    Gal 3:22-28
    22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
    23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
    26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
    NIV
    When we have faith and are baptized we are given the righteousness of Christ.
    1 John 1:8-10
    8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. NIV

    Rom 3:10-12

    10″There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” NIV
    There is no exception given for babies.“Infants die, therefore they are not innocentDeath–both physical and spiritual–is a result of sin (Romans 5:12; 6:23). Thus, death only comes upon those who have sinned. Since infants die, they therefore must be sinners. It could be objected that Christ was sinless, and yet He died. But He willingly gave up His life, and He did it to conquer the curse of death that we were under. In fact, God imputed to Christ our sins on the cross, and Christ died in punishment of those sins.” John PiperThis video at Def.Con. might
    help.Berean Wife”

    Hayden; thanks… I really do rely heavily on my Dake Study Bible. 😉

    Red Wine Gums; That’s the “Readers Digest” version of what I am saying. lol thanks

    Bereanwife; I think your thoughtful post has a problem with it. God alone is the One Who decides when life begins and ends. For us to decide otherwise is DEFINATELY against Holy Scripture. So no we can not committ unholy acts in order to manipulate The Lord’s ultimate purpose.

    Joy; that is a keen observation about the “pomp and circumstance” of baptizing infants.

    It is my personal understanding of Holy Scripture that baptism comes AFTER an understanding of who the Master is.

    Anything prior to that is spiritually bankrupt… in my opinion.

  6. bereanwife says:

    Mssc54,

    Sorry again for the spacing issues.

    I agree that God alone decides about life and death; I could not possibly even kill another unless God allows it to happen. God also decides the issue of Heaven and Hell. Nevertheless, with your reasoning that all babies are sinless and die going to heaven then my question is valid. It would be very selfish to allow babies to live if we know that they automatically go to heaven as a baby but may lose their salvation as an adult. Yet Jesus said he shall not lose any that the Father has given him.

    John 6:39-40
    39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” NIV

    It may not sound right to a human to think that a baby could be full of sin but our ways are not God’s ways nor are our thoughts God’s thoughts.

    Isa 55:8-9

    8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.
    9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. NIV

    Ps 51:3-6

    3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is always before me.
    4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight,
    so that you are proved right when you speak and justified when you judge.
    5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
    6 Surely you desire truth in the inner parts ; you teach me wisdom in the inmost place. NIV

    I am bowing out of this discussion unless you desire to continue it. I pray that the Lord, that desires us to know the truth, will grant you His Wisdom.

    Berean Wife

  7. mssc54 says:

    Bereanwife;

    Worry not about any glitches in posting.

    I appreciate your (current) understanding of Holy Scripture.

    Actually those verses from Isiah (55:8-9) have caused me some comfort as I “camped out” on them when, after being married to my daugher and them having a three month old son, was killed in action in Afghanistan. (you can see the story in my earlier posts “Death at the front door” if you wish) If it would have been my way Buddy would be home with us today raising thier twenty month old son. So I completely the Sovereignty of the Master.

    Scripture also says “confess with your mouth”. What of the deaf mute? What of the mentally retarded? Would they fall into the same catagory af new born babies with regards to their sin nature and salvation?

    Adam was the first sin. Jesus, according to Holy Scripture, was the last Adam.

    1 Corenthians 15:

    45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

    49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    Feel free to continue to participate in our enlightenment. Perhaps the Lord is using each of us as a tool of sorts.

    As you prayed the Lord grant me His Wisdom, I pray for your enlightenment as well.

    May we ALL be blessed through our pursuit of His Divine Wisdom.

  8. Amber says:

    Honey, God reveals himself to each of our hearts. It would be a saddened blackened heart indeed that could look at a newborn baby and believe it born from or full of sin as it lay there.

    Isn’t the New Testament about the Good News? That God loves us in spite of ourselves? That we are his beloved children? If that is the case, how could he look upon us in that way? People take out of the bible what they want. If all you want to see is negative and sin, then that is what you will see. If you want to see the love and joy of God’s word… then you will experience that. The choice is yours.

  9. bereanwife says:

    Since you asked me to feel free to “enlighten” you I will. First off “enlightenment” as used today is not Christian it is a different gospel. It often says that there are many ways to heaven and what is true for you may not be true for me, but that is wrong.

    John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. NIV

    John MacArthur writes, “Scripture describes all authentic Christians as those who know the truth and have been liberated by it (John 8:32). They believe it with a whole heart (2 Thessalonians 2:13). They obey the truth through the Spirit of God (1 Peter 1:22). And they have received a fervent love for the truth through the gracious work of God in their hearts (2 Thessalonians 2:10)…Clearly, the existence of absolute truth and its inseparable relationship to the person of God is the most essential tenet of all truly biblical Christianity. Speaking plainly, if you are one of those who questions whether truth is really important, please don’t call your belief system ‘Christianity,’ because that is not what it is. A biblical perspective of truth also entails the recognition that ultimate truth is an objective reality. Truth exists outside of us and remains the same regardless of how we may perceive it.”

    Actually, the whole Bible, Old and New, is the Good News. The Old shows us why we are so depraved that Jesus had to die for our sins. Without the Law to show us our sin there is no reason for us to believe Jesus died in our place. (see the whole book of Romans)

    Gal 3:24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. NIV

    This is what God says about us.

    Rom 3:10-18

    “There is no one righteous, not even one;
    11 there is no one who understands,
    no one who seeks God.
    12 All have turned away,
    they have together become worthless;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even one.”
    13 “Their throats are open graves;
    their tongues practice deceit.”
    “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
    14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
    15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
    17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
    18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” NIV

    Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, NIV

    Rom 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. NIV

    Rom 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. NIV

    The Lord will decide whom he will call, so we do not have to worry about “what about the … people.” We are to share the gospel, He is responsible for the salvation. Our actions will not save anyone.

    We are totally depraved and blackened of heart such that there is nothing desirable in us. We, that are trusting in the atonement of Jesus, have been given the righteousness of Jesus. There is nothing worthy of love in any of us in the eyes of God, but for the shed blood of Jesus.

    We must take all of the Bible, not pick out the “love and joy” and forget the hard stuff like “sin and punishment.” Otherwise we have “another gospel” (2 Corinthians 11:4)

    Until you love and worship the Holy God whom is worthy of worship and realize that there is nothing of worth in yourself, you are worshiping another god. You can not make up your god from what you like of the Bible. Whether or not we trust in the Lord God and He allows you into His heaven does not change the fact that at some point “every knee will bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord.” Phillippians 2:10

    Praying for you,
    Berean Wife

  10. mssc54 says:

    Bereanwife;

    Well you certainly know your Bible.

    Of course I can not disagree with any of the Holy Scripture you have posted here.

    I appreciate your prayers for I know my fless is corrupted. However – – –

    Romans 7: 14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

    21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
    So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

    Romans 8
    Life Through the Spirit
    1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[d] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[e] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[f] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[g] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
    5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[h] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[i] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

    If my mind is set on the flesh I am corrupted. But if I am after the Spirit… the things of the Spirit.

    If we look fruther at Romans 8:6-16 we see there are twentyfold contrast between fleshly and spiritual lives.

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